This post did exactly as you said it would for a Christian esotericist like myself: deeply piqued my interest in Mormon thought, I am eager to learn more. As any good and honest Christian esotericist, I am involved in the process of synthesizing opposites like Tombergs Hermit, not to make them forced hybrids, but to find that which strives toward real unity. I never fit in to the the perennialist or Pharisee crowd because I refuse to settle and fall for either trap. A devil to the left and a devil to the right so to speak. As an American (New England to be precise and descendent of Mayflower voyagers) and disenfranchised evangelical, the question of the Mormons seems to be an important part of “making sense” of the great unfolding of universal history and my own part in it. I especially appreciate the absence of abstraction that imo lead to the great mess that is the state of western philosophy/theology. Once again, thank you.
I just found this post as well, and found it exceptionally interesting. As a Latter Day Saint, I find your summary of what we believe to be the most accurate of any I have ever read from a non-member. Also, having had a deep and long-lived fascination with Hugh Nibley and his works (I'm looking at a complete collection of his work sitting on my library shelf, which I have devoured) I was very pleasantly surprised at your characterization if him as the 20th Century's greatest intellectual, a sentiment with which I fully agree. He's had a profound affect on my understanding of LDS theology, and therefore on my entire world-view. I'm also an avid fan of Terryl and Fiona Givens' work.
There is a new young scholar who has recently emerged on the scene by the name of Adam Miller. He's written a book called "Original Grace," that has affected my world-view as much as anything Givens has written, and I'd like to recommend it to you as a fascinating re-examination of the Protestant view on Original Sin through the lens of Joseph Smith's Restoration theology: https://www.amazon.com/Original-Grace-Adam-S-Miller/dp/1639930248 . The book's value far exceeds its price, in my view. See what you think.
I read this whole thing again today, and I find that the ideas are growing on me and becoming more clear over time. Definitely feeling this:
"So it’s not that I came to agree with the Mormons; it’s more that I already agreed with them but I didn’t know. I suspect many a Christian esoterist would find the same thing, and be as surprised as I was."
I think that I'll pick up *Wrestling the Angel*. Great job here, making the case.
Some good news, by the way: Angelico Press said yes to publishing a manuscript of mine. Interestingly enough, the epigraph I chose for it a long while ago is by the songwriter Brandon Flowers—who is a Mormon.
"One could of course blame the Mormons themselves for the insufficiency and failure of their missionary efforts, and there may indeed be some of that."
I got off my mission October 2022. Let me tell you, there is PLENTY of that.
I enjoyed your post. Lifelong LDS and have followed Bruce Charlton. It's interesting to see with this fresh outside perspective who we are, and why everybody instinctively knows our beliefs are so different.
I realized years ago that If we are made in the image of God, that means God is much more human than we are. Also in the first decades of Mormonism singing and speaking in tongues was frequent among Mormons.
It was one of Bruce Charlton's recent posts (4/18/24) that brought me to your excellent site. Although I have been reading Charlton for several years, my introduction to Mormonism came via Harold Bloom's "The American Religion," following a brief foray into ancient Gnosticism. I have thoroughly enjoyed your outstanding post and recommendations. As an aspiring Christian, I am deeply intrigued by your characterization of the Holy Spirit as "an embodied and loving immortal Goddess." Coincidentally, in (nondual) Kashmiri Shaivism, Awareness itself is the blessed Goddess, the Supreme Power who vibrates as the various infinite worlds, the personficiation of the power of fully expanded consciousness. (The Recognition Sutras). There are innumerable affinites and similarities between Mormon theology and Plato, Stoicism and Neoplatonism, as well as Eastern philosophy, for which reason, the Mormon Church strikes me as the most "universal" and 'rational' of Christian churches.
Wm Jas Tyconoviech referred me back to this post which i first read some time ago and had liked. This read through, I was struck by how Jesus praying to the Father proved things about them, and that the same thing happens in the Book of Mormon, but in the Book of Mormon he clearly had been glorified, whereas in the Bible he is last seen ascending to the Father to be glorified (apart from visions). Glorification did not change this.
This made me look into the book of mormon, but after reading it i am certain that a lot of things said of mormons is slanderous, but at the same time that the religion is a big lie. It may also perhaps, but that might just be my bias from such slanderous input, be that mormonism has signs of hidden moral (a outer and inner layer of the religion, with hidden morals in the holy text for the initiated elite).
That said, the theology, especially in the modified version of genesis, is very weak, and misses alot of the points made by the real Torah (Adam makes the first offering to God? The holy spirit speaks (...) and tells Nephi to kill someone? give me a break). This means the religion does not even have theoretical value.
As for the falsity of the book of mormon, a curious eye need only look at this formulation in Nephi 3, 3:2 ;
"2 Lachoneus, most noble and chief governor of the land, behold, I write this epistle unto you, and do give unto you exceedingly great praise because of your firmness, and also the firmness of your people, in maintaining that which ye suppose to be your right and liberty; yea, ye do stand well, as if ye were supported by the hand of a god, in the defence of your liberty, and your property, and your country, or that which ye do call so."
This way of speaking is very american, and drips of american revolution buzzwords post 1776, which never would have been used by culturally isolated jews thousands of years ago. Liberty and rights? Property? Most nations outside of Europe didn´t have a concept or word for what "rights" were until post 1800. Property was also a dubious concept for the native americans.
This is very intriguing. Until quite recently, I had the typical reaction of repugnance to Mormonism (vaguely associated with polygamy and aliens and Mitt Romney); but I eventually had to realize that 1) I knew almost nothing about it and 2) given my interest in ongoing revelation and the age of the Holy Ghost, it was odd of me to not even hear it out. I'm not sure why that specific conditioning takes a deeper hold than most others.
About the Fall: I do like the notion of the felix culpa. From even a more orthodox standpoint, Eve and Adam would have had only untested freedom that was bound for transgression through naivety or simple curiosity, whereas when we take back Paradise, we will presumably be tempered and immune to sin. So, it looks like this adventure yields a dramatic positive gain, which also implies that the Fall that set it all off couldn't be an altogether negative event.
A point I'm not sure about, though, is whether that gain is strictly for the Creation or whether the gain is also in God Himself. The two views seem to be: 1) God is complete in Himself, and all of Creation is a surplus generated out of His kenosis and love; and 2) God is incomplete in Himself, and He needs the Creation to come to fruition in order for Him to achieve His own fullness. I think I favor the first view, mainly because it suggests that the essence of the Creation is overflow rather than lack. But that also definitely shouldn't be taken to mean that the Creation is somehow arbitrary or superfluous, or that it was possible for God to not create.
Loved this article. I'm LDS. Studying esotericism is new for me, but I've contemplated all of these topics for years, and I agree with pretty much everything you've said here. I often wish that the mainstream body of the church was not so reticent to speak directly about the similarities between what they believe and other mystical/esoteric practices. I've used the term mystic for a long long time and just started identifying more with the esoteric label. I think LDS folks would do well to worry less about what other Christians think of them, and start seeing more of the similarities between our church and other less conventional spiritual practices.
I made a documentary which is on my substack. It's kind of a beast. It's a 6 hour documentary about the culture of the state of Utah.. or specifically Utah Mormons. Maybe you'd find it interesting. No need to watch it all at once. It's a little overwhelming, I admit. https://codecxs.substack.com/p/glorious-things-are-sung-of-zion
Just found this post today. Great job! I'm a Latter-day Saint, and I think you do a better job highlighting some of what should be our missionary points than we do. At times, we want to be more normal than we actually are.
This post did exactly as you said it would for a Christian esotericist like myself: deeply piqued my interest in Mormon thought, I am eager to learn more. As any good and honest Christian esotericist, I am involved in the process of synthesizing opposites like Tombergs Hermit, not to make them forced hybrids, but to find that which strives toward real unity. I never fit in to the the perennialist or Pharisee crowd because I refuse to settle and fall for either trap. A devil to the left and a devil to the right so to speak. As an American (New England to be precise and descendent of Mayflower voyagers) and disenfranchised evangelical, the question of the Mormons seems to be an important part of “making sense” of the great unfolding of universal history and my own part in it. I especially appreciate the absence of abstraction that imo lead to the great mess that is the state of western philosophy/theology. Once again, thank you.
I just found this post as well, and found it exceptionally interesting. As a Latter Day Saint, I find your summary of what we believe to be the most accurate of any I have ever read from a non-member. Also, having had a deep and long-lived fascination with Hugh Nibley and his works (I'm looking at a complete collection of his work sitting on my library shelf, which I have devoured) I was very pleasantly surprised at your characterization if him as the 20th Century's greatest intellectual, a sentiment with which I fully agree. He's had a profound affect on my understanding of LDS theology, and therefore on my entire world-view. I'm also an avid fan of Terryl and Fiona Givens' work.
There is a new young scholar who has recently emerged on the scene by the name of Adam Miller. He's written a book called "Original Grace," that has affected my world-view as much as anything Givens has written, and I'd like to recommend it to you as a fascinating re-examination of the Protestant view on Original Sin through the lens of Joseph Smith's Restoration theology: https://www.amazon.com/Original-Grace-Adam-S-Miller/dp/1639930248 . The book's value far exceeds its price, in my view. See what you think.
I read this whole thing again today, and I find that the ideas are growing on me and becoming more clear over time. Definitely feeling this:
"So it’s not that I came to agree with the Mormons; it’s more that I already agreed with them but I didn’t know. I suspect many a Christian esoterist would find the same thing, and be as surprised as I was."
I think that I'll pick up *Wrestling the Angel*. Great job here, making the case.
Some good news, by the way: Angelico Press said yes to publishing a manuscript of mine. Interestingly enough, the epigraph I chose for it a long while ago is by the songwriter Brandon Flowers—who is a Mormon.
"One could of course blame the Mormons themselves for the insufficiency and failure of their missionary efforts, and there may indeed be some of that."
I got off my mission October 2022. Let me tell you, there is PLENTY of that.
I enjoyed your post. Lifelong LDS and have followed Bruce Charlton. It's interesting to see with this fresh outside perspective who we are, and why everybody instinctively knows our beliefs are so different.
I realized years ago that If we are made in the image of God, that means God is much more human than we are. Also in the first decades of Mormonism singing and speaking in tongues was frequent among Mormons.
It was one of Bruce Charlton's recent posts (4/18/24) that brought me to your excellent site. Although I have been reading Charlton for several years, my introduction to Mormonism came via Harold Bloom's "The American Religion," following a brief foray into ancient Gnosticism. I have thoroughly enjoyed your outstanding post and recommendations. As an aspiring Christian, I am deeply intrigued by your characterization of the Holy Spirit as "an embodied and loving immortal Goddess." Coincidentally, in (nondual) Kashmiri Shaivism, Awareness itself is the blessed Goddess, the Supreme Power who vibrates as the various infinite worlds, the personficiation of the power of fully expanded consciousness. (The Recognition Sutras). There are innumerable affinites and similarities between Mormon theology and Plato, Stoicism and Neoplatonism, as well as Eastern philosophy, for which reason, the Mormon Church strikes me as the most "universal" and 'rational' of Christian churches.
Wm Jas Tyconoviech referred me back to this post which i first read some time ago and had liked. This read through, I was struck by how Jesus praying to the Father proved things about them, and that the same thing happens in the Book of Mormon, but in the Book of Mormon he clearly had been glorified, whereas in the Bible he is last seen ascending to the Father to be glorified (apart from visions). Glorification did not change this.
This made me look into the book of mormon, but after reading it i am certain that a lot of things said of mormons is slanderous, but at the same time that the religion is a big lie. It may also perhaps, but that might just be my bias from such slanderous input, be that mormonism has signs of hidden moral (a outer and inner layer of the religion, with hidden morals in the holy text for the initiated elite).
That said, the theology, especially in the modified version of genesis, is very weak, and misses alot of the points made by the real Torah (Adam makes the first offering to God? The holy spirit speaks (...) and tells Nephi to kill someone? give me a break). This means the religion does not even have theoretical value.
As for the falsity of the book of mormon, a curious eye need only look at this formulation in Nephi 3, 3:2 ;
"2 Lachoneus, most noble and chief governor of the land, behold, I write this epistle unto you, and do give unto you exceedingly great praise because of your firmness, and also the firmness of your people, in maintaining that which ye suppose to be your right and liberty; yea, ye do stand well, as if ye were supported by the hand of a god, in the defence of your liberty, and your property, and your country, or that which ye do call so."
This way of speaking is very american, and drips of american revolution buzzwords post 1776, which never would have been used by culturally isolated jews thousands of years ago. Liberty and rights? Property? Most nations outside of Europe didn´t have a concept or word for what "rights" were until post 1800. Property was also a dubious concept for the native americans.
Very insightful and well said. Thank you.
Have you ever seen the film *Interstellar*? I just did last night, and if you have, you'll probably know why I ask.
This is very intriguing. Until quite recently, I had the typical reaction of repugnance to Mormonism (vaguely associated with polygamy and aliens and Mitt Romney); but I eventually had to realize that 1) I knew almost nothing about it and 2) given my interest in ongoing revelation and the age of the Holy Ghost, it was odd of me to not even hear it out. I'm not sure why that specific conditioning takes a deeper hold than most others.
About the Fall: I do like the notion of the felix culpa. From even a more orthodox standpoint, Eve and Adam would have had only untested freedom that was bound for transgression through naivety or simple curiosity, whereas when we take back Paradise, we will presumably be tempered and immune to sin. So, it looks like this adventure yields a dramatic positive gain, which also implies that the Fall that set it all off couldn't be an altogether negative event.
A point I'm not sure about, though, is whether that gain is strictly for the Creation or whether the gain is also in God Himself. The two views seem to be: 1) God is complete in Himself, and all of Creation is a surplus generated out of His kenosis and love; and 2) God is incomplete in Himself, and He needs the Creation to come to fruition in order for Him to achieve His own fullness. I think I favor the first view, mainly because it suggests that the essence of the Creation is overflow rather than lack. But that also definitely shouldn't be taken to mean that the Creation is somehow arbitrary or superfluous, or that it was possible for God to not create.
Loved this article. I'm LDS. Studying esotericism is new for me, but I've contemplated all of these topics for years, and I agree with pretty much everything you've said here. I often wish that the mainstream body of the church was not so reticent to speak directly about the similarities between what they believe and other mystical/esoteric practices. I've used the term mystic for a long long time and just started identifying more with the esoteric label. I think LDS folks would do well to worry less about what other Christians think of them, and start seeing more of the similarities between our church and other less conventional spiritual practices.
I made a documentary which is on my substack. It's kind of a beast. It's a 6 hour documentary about the culture of the state of Utah.. or specifically Utah Mormons. Maybe you'd find it interesting. No need to watch it all at once. It's a little overwhelming, I admit. https://codecxs.substack.com/p/glorious-things-are-sung-of-zion
Interesting piece. I think you’d be interested in my piece at https://mormonsmysticsandmuons.substack.com/p/mormonism-psychedelics-quantum-physics and my podcast Mormons, Mystics, and Muons. If you take a read, I’d love to hear what you think.
this is very helpful; thank you!
Just found this post today. Great job! I'm a Latter-day Saint, and I think you do a better job highlighting some of what should be our missionary points than we do. At times, we want to be more normal than we actually are.