the following came about as part of a comment to (and then a bit of back and forth with) Bruce. it’s an attempt to put some of the ideas together into a more coherent whole in order to save it, instead of it being scattered in email replies (this is an important theme for the discussion, incidentally).
I find the distinction you made between salvation and exaltation to be very important, and you highlighted it well. For me growing up this would have been salvation vs. "sanctification" in the language of the western Christian tradition. The way you explained this connects well to something I have been thinking about, and may write about:
St. Paul is, as always, so brilliant on this topic. In his beautiful and poetic description of the resurrection of the body in 1 Corinthians 15 he calls Jesus "the last Adam." What does it mean to be the last Adam? Who are the other Adams?
To me the most clear example is Noah. The relevant part of Noah's story is that it is twofold: 1) build the ark and gather things into it, 2) participate in the recreation of the world: "be fruitful and multiply." Noah was saved as soon as he got on the ark, and he saved his family and all the animals (male and female btw). However, there was still work ahead for him such as becoming a man of the earth, tending to animals, etc. We might understand exaltation or sanctification as preparation for participating in the next stage of creation. These two steps function as a bridge from the old world to the new world, allowing for continuity.
Right now I can't make a helpful distinction between Jesus as the second Noah vs Jesus as the ark, it seems like he functions as both. St. Paul certainly talks about Jesus as the bridge from this world to the next: "your life is hid with Christ in God," "every mans work shall be made manifest." There are some differences of course, the next cataclysm will be fire not water. But in general salvation is not the end-all-be-all. That would be like wanting to stay on the bridge instead of going into the new bountiful land. Or one of Noah's sons wanting to stay on the ark after they had already landed. In other words, the "purpose" of salvation is new creation, which we participate in.
In the words of St. Peter: "... when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him."
Excellent piece of writing! What do you see as the role of suffering in our life? The reason I ask, is in Heaven, I don't think there can be 'suffering' but here on earth, the people who love God the most (saints & martyrs) are seemingly subjected to the worst of it. Does it exalt the soul in some way? Are the higher spheres of heaven reserved for those who have endured the most - or for those who have made the best of life and lived happily? Is it for both?
P.S. This is my first time commenting here. I've always liked your posts on Bruce Charlton's blog (hence how I found out about your substack).
I find the distinction you made between salvation and exaltation to be very important, and you highlighted it well. For me growing up this would have been salvation vs. "sanctification" in the language of the western Christian tradition. The way you explained this connects well to something I have been thinking about, and may write about:
St. Paul is, as always, so brilliant on this topic. In his beautiful and poetic description of the resurrection of the body in 1 Corinthians 15 he calls Jesus "the last Adam." What does it mean to be the last Adam? Who are the other Adams?
To me the most clear example is Noah. The relevant part of Noah's story is that it is twofold: 1) build the ark and gather things into it, 2) participate in the recreation of the world: "be fruitful and multiply." Noah was saved as soon as he got on the ark, and he saved his family and all the animals (male and female btw). However, there was still work ahead for him such as becoming a man of the earth, tending to animals, etc. We might understand exaltation or sanctification as preparation for participating in the next stage of creation. These two steps function as a bridge from the old world to the new world, allowing for continuity.
Right now I can't make a helpful distinction between Jesus as the second Noah vs Jesus as the ark, it seems like he functions as both. St. Paul certainly talks about Jesus as the bridge from this world to the next: "your life is hid with Christ in God," "every mans work shall be made manifest." There are some differences of course, the next cataclysm will be fire not water. But in general salvation is not the end-all-be-all. That would be like wanting to stay on the bridge instead of going into the new bountiful land. Or one of Noah's sons wanting to stay on the ark after they had already landed. In other words, the "purpose" of salvation is new creation, which we participate in.
In the words of St. Peter: "... when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him."
thank you. also, many interesting thoughts, with which i agree. except perhaps for the disaster by fire. i’m not sure about that.
Paul at the very least says every mans work will be tested by fire. So fire is involved somehow even if it isn't a literal one.
Excellent piece of writing! What do you see as the role of suffering in our life? The reason I ask, is in Heaven, I don't think there can be 'suffering' but here on earth, the people who love God the most (saints & martyrs) are seemingly subjected to the worst of it. Does it exalt the soul in some way? Are the higher spheres of heaven reserved for those who have endured the most - or for those who have made the best of life and lived happily? Is it for both?
P.S. This is my first time commenting here. I've always liked your posts on Bruce Charlton's blog (hence how I found out about your substack).
All the best to you!
Shivan